Earl Cobb On Choosing To Lead Or Be Led

 

Leaders are everywhere. They are responsible for directing others to a certain goal or principle, and it is up to you to choose either to lead or be led. Rodney Flowers sits down with a formal professor of leadership, Earl Cobb, to discuss the omnipresence of leadership and how we should adjust our perspectives to fully embrace its idea wherever it can be found, from a simple corporate setting to the complex political system. Earl underlines how we should pour our energy into things that we can fully control, how we can lead even through the most trivial things, and the five characteristics every effective and inspiring leader must possess.

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Earl Cobb On Choosing To Lead Or Be Led

As always, I am excited about this show. I have Earl Cobb with me in this episode. He is known as an imaginative and visionary leader. He is a formal professor of leadership and organizational behavior. He is the author of eleven published books, including his bestselling book Focused Leadership: What You Can Do Today to Become a More Effective Leader. Welcome to the show, Mr. Earl Cobb.

Thanks, Rodney. I’m glad that you invited me to be here.

I wanted to get you on the show to talk about leadership, especially at a time like this where people are looking for leadership and looking for answers. They’re looking for what to do and then there’s this calling on all of us to step up and be leaders in our own right as we navigate the challenges that are happening in the world now. I wanted to get some insight from you as an expert on the field. What are some of the things we need to do to make sure that we come out of this situation as better versions of ourselves for ourselves and for the world in general?

I retired back in 2009 in Corporate America. I did 34 years there. I decided that what I wanted to do since I was still fairly young was to do something that I had been envisioning for years while I was up and down the corporate ladder. That is being able to have enough time to sit down and write about one thing that at least the past few years of my corporate life, where I was in senior leadership roles. It’s to write about this thing called leadership. There are three things if you think about leadership that some people miss and most people do.

One is that throughout our life, whether we like it or not, we’re either leading or we’re being led. Take that back to mom and dad leading you, teachers leading you, you leading the football team. For some reason, there’s something about society and it goes back to a lot of the Plato writings where leadership has always been discussed, whether the leader or this idea of leadership. In contemporary studies say the last many years, this whole leadership thing has been focused more around where the economy has taken us, that he is the company leader.

 

When you think of a leader, you think of leading businesses or leading organizations and throughout societies, the leaders of governance in countries. The thing is that we all need to be cognizant of what leadership can and can’t do. In one of my books, I talk about the fact that leadership isn’t something you talk about. Leadership is something you do because it is. If you think about you getting up every morning, you’ve got to make decisions. At that point, it’s you leading you. Good decisions, good results. Not a good decision, not good results.

As you get into your daily routine where you gather and you intermingle with others, you get into this either, I’m going to leave them or they’re going to leave me. Someone is going to make a decision. I’m going to agree. I’m going to make a decision. They’re going to agree. You can take that throughout every step of your day, of your life, of your relationships, both professional and personal and public in terms of the people that govern you. Those decisions that they’ve made that you agree with or don’t agree with and using those mechanisms to get the best that you can in terms of the people that you have to follow.

How can we lead ourselves positively and the situation that we’re in with COVID-19 or just general? Leadership is a big topic. I know you said don’t talk about it, do it. There are many books out there about leadership. There are many podcasts and people talking about leadership. I don’t know if leadership is getting any better. We’re doing a lot of talking about it, but it seems like we could all be better leaders. We need more leaders. There’s this lack of accountability to be a leader and stepping up into that role. I remember when social justice as this happened with George Floyd, one of the major questions was, where’s the leader? People were looking for someone to step up and lead and provide guidance, information, and direction on how we even within our society and our culture handle the situation. That wasn’t readily present. There are other deficiencies when it comes to leadership for ourselves or out in our community. Would you agree with those statements? If so, what are some of the things we need to do to increase our leadership ability?

I would agree with the sense of there not being led, but I would disagree that there isn’t leadership and this is where the complexity and the partisan thing comes in. As I said, we’re all leading or being led. In every situation, there are tens of millions of people that are leading around the world. Catch the end of one NPR show or catch a discussion in some magazine that gets into manly and talk about people. People are leading all over the place. Your pastor is leading, like Dr. Martin Luther King back in the ’60s and the movement. The reason we were seeking the one leader and the positive leader is because that’s what humanity demands us to do.

We want things to be right and right is the most relative term in the English language. Take the George Floyd situation. Every young person that was out there using their right to protest was leading. They let themselves out there. They had to get up and decide where they’re going to go. The idea of all the governors doing this COVID-19 episode that we’ve been going through, they’ve been leading, whether you like their leader or not. You like the New York governor’s leadership because it looks like at least he’s talking to his people. You may not like another state’s leader, but they’re all leading.

Leading isn’t leading the way you want it and leading isn’t about leading positively. Leading isn’t about one leader. The thing is leadership is omnipresent. From a personal standpoint, getting back to your initial question is how do you deal with it internally yourself? It comes back to this idea that it’s all about your mindset and you putting all of that in perspective. You’ve got leaders that are leading people on the wrong path, in your opinion. You’ve got people who are leading people on the right path. The idea is, what can you do to discern all of that leadership out there? What can you do to get a positive view from your perspective on leadership? That’s happening every day. AM Talk Radio is all about leadership. You’ve got people trying to lead people down one channel and you’ve got people who want to listen to people, who want to follow people that are in a position to reconfirm what they’re thinking. That’s a leader and that’s leadership. You won’t think of it that way, but it is.

Leading isn't about one leader. It is omnipresent. Share on X

How does leading with an organization differ from what most people think when they hear the word leadership?

Think of organizational leadership, and I’m talking about people that have some level of supervision and in organizations of particular companies, it stops with the board of directors. Maybe there isn’t anyone over the word directors, other than the regulations and all the things that got them. As you stepped down from the CEO, the COO, the division managers to leaders and to the sub-organizations, what separates that organizational leadership is that what’s expected is defined within the organizational policies and procedures.

What’s expected is, hopefully, demonstrated by the senior management. When you’re leading within an organization, it’s not freelance. Whether it’s a government organization or a private organization, there are rules. You’ve got people that walk into corporation, company, and organization doors every morning from 8:00 to 5:00 because they know what the rules are. They want that paycheck. They know what’s going to take to get promoted or whatever. They’re going to follow the organization’s rules. The minute they step out of that, they can do anything that you can’t even imagine people out there are doing anymore because the organization creates that framework.

Outside of companies and organizations that we think of in terms of capitalism, then you get into the political environment, which is the broadest environment. Inside your house, think of that, you are the leader of that organization. You and your spouse or your partner, you’re the leader of that. You set the rule. That’s why this adage about, “There’s no place like home,” because it’s your rules. You know what’s going to go. You know how you want it. When you step outside, you’re at the advent of whatever is out there.

In terms of political and nation types of leadership, you’re at the mercy of the institutions. Unlike in your company and in your home, you aren’t necessarily in charge of changing them directly or modifying them directly. You either have a few people in most cases or some sense of democracy of virtualization that allows you to participate in setting that type of environment. That’s why you have different types of leadership there.

The leadership within an organization is more focused on single goals, single missions, define objectives, and dedicated resources to do what the “top leader,” board of director, CEO, owner of the company, or whatever would like you to do and is willing to pay you to support them to do that. You can take that same analogy out in the public as well. Except out there now, leadership is different. Leadership comes in the form of how many resources you have, how many ask you can have to persuade people or to talk about your opponent. All of that follows a whole different category about who leads you and how you lead yourself to different environments.

What do we do? How do we navigate all of that?

 

It’s to understand the fact that leadership is omnipresent and that you can only do all those things within your control and your power. If you think about all those things you can do, whether it’s in your home, workplace, church, fraternity, sorority or your podcast. If you do everything within what you’ve got controlled of in a way that you would envision that someone will view you as being an effective leader, that’s how you do it. That’s about it. If everyone would do that and if you look at the history of leadership across nation-states, going back to the Incas if you study that, you will see that leaders come and go. In Spain and England, ships come and go. The reason is because of the fact that leadership is omnipresent. If you allow the people, the organization, the institutions that create this leadership environment to be something, then that’s something is what you’re going to experience. Whether that something is a Holocaust, Jim Crow, or whatever. That whole stage is set by the political environment which is based on leading and being led.

Why do you think leadership from your perspective is important?

It’s because either you’re leading or you’re being led. It’s not something you can opt-out of.

Let’s dive into that.

Humanity is the one thing other than the belief in God that connects everyone. Share on X

If you understood leadership from what it is, in terms of influence and being able to have people follow. That’s what leadership is. Think about what you do. Think about as simple as influence as you take two people and I see it all the time. You go to the grocery store, one person and they’ve got a big smile on their face. As soon as they walk into the store, “What do you want?” get the best thing there is. Get the time with that. Get the person with a sour face going there, “Here she comes again.” That’s how you lead yourself. That’s personal leadership. If you can equate that, it’s not just a thought. When you read about leadership, I agree. You see people reading traits, motivation and all that’s there. When it comes down to truly understanding leadership, that’s why some people get more and other people to get less is because they don’t understand the power of leadership and their ability to utilize the leadership that is inherent to them.

Give us another example. Let’s bring this to light for the audience. I want you to help us understand the essence of what that power is that you’re talking about in a way where the audience could walk away from this show and experience the positive impact and the effects of understanding that problem.

Let me see if I can break it down to how it hit home with me. Think of the idea of following. In your mind, think of what does the following mean to me. Following means that you will go and you will do what someone else or what you think someone else is doing or want you to do. As a follower, you are living through someone else’s thoughts, someone else’s direction, thoughts of you, direction for you. Realistically think about all those things that we must do in a society that requires that we follow. In most homes in the suburban areas of the US now, you have HOA, Homeowners Associations. There are rules that you will follow.

If you want to live there, you follow those rules. You agree to follow up. Sometimes following is good because you don’t want to have pink, red, and purple homes next to your beautiful white home. There is a part follow there. Let’s go over and let’s get out of this deal and think of just lead. What does it mean to lead? Can you lead without initiative? No. Can you lead without a bot? No. Can you lead without the desire and passion to want someone or something to be a certain way or to follow you in a direction? No. There is a very distinct difference between following and leading, but the only problem is they’re linked.

Either you’re going to lead or you’re going to follow. Some things, it’s okay to follow, your HOA. The hours that the grocery store is open or when the subway runs. You have schedules and you follow those things. There are other things in your life that you have the opportunity to determine. The difference between just determining them and thinking about them is you doing something about getting there or going there or being that way. Lead, follow omnipresence in every day of our life.

What would you like to see differently, as an expert on leadership, when you look at society and the things that are happening? What are some of the things that you feel need to be present in this from a leadership perspective?

If you want to consider it from a leadership perspective, you need to look at the definition of humanity. Humanity is the one thing other than your belief in your God or your religion that connects us. It’s nothing that’s written in tablets and it’s nothing that’s enforced by laws. It is something that’s innate of being human and wanting to be treated as human. All of those things that you like, you can be enthusiastic about. All those things you don’t like, you need to understand why you don’t like those. What’s in there that’s allowing someone or something not to sense or have the same humanity that you believe you have? Think about that.

Why is it good for the gander and not the geese? Why do I think this way and Rodney thinks differently? It’s not that Earl thinks one way and Rodney thinks different. It’s Earl wanting to understand why Rodney thinks the way he thinks and Rodney wants to think about, why does Earl think what he thinks? There’s no way I can remove from the way you think from where you’ve been and how you grew up and the episodes that you’ve gone through in your life. Those things that have shaped you in your life. Those are the things that have helped you gain your view of humanity. If you want to say, “Why is Earl harping on this leadership is omnipresent?” It’s because I’ve studied it. I’ve written about it. I’ve talked about it. I’ve been to many conferences, you can go back to Socrates or whatever. Nothing in the world is new.

You’ll understand that leadership is one of those words that people throw out as if it will cover everything. It won’t because it’s always present. We learned this, there were more leaders other than Martin. There was John Lewis. The mind wants to gravitate to this if we had a leader and that type of thing. To be short here, the key is to think about the humanity in everything you do in the like of what you believe humanity should be and the people who are doing things you don’t like, and that’s the intersect point. That’s what needs to be addressed.

It’s easier in an organization because if I was the CEO, I’d put a stop to it. If I was a CEO, I would recognize that if I stopped resources and funds from going into the Social Security tax form, because I want some political gain and that’s going to hurt the company, I’d stop it. As a country, you can’t. It’s not as instantaneous. It’s not because there aren’t leaders. It’s because now, this system governs this environment, not Rodney in his house or Earl in his house governing what happens to his finances or the family finances.

People won't care about what you think until they know how much you care. Share on X

What do you say to the audience that’s reading this? Maybe they want some leadership even from you or some direction on it. What do we do with that, Earl?

This is what I do in all of my coachings. I can’t create people. People are who they are. You have these innate things that make you good, that makes you great but the key is, look within yourself. Remember that at times, everyone is a leader and at times everyone is a follower. Think about those things that are important to you, that you think would make a difference in your life and the life of the people in your family or people that you know, on those items you lead. Meaning doesn’t just think about it, go out and do something about it.

 

Be the initiative, create a podcast, and do something about it. That’s leading. On those things that make sense that someone else is already leading in a manner that you think to support your humanity in the way you want to, then support that podcast. Don’t try to replace Rodney. “I’ll follow him. He’s leading in the direction that I want to go.” If you can parse that, then you get the stress out of it. This idea that there’s a magic bullet. My wife and I, had a home in the mountains in Tucson a few years ago. We used to love to go to this church and this young pastor, young family and we were looking forward to getting into that church.

On Sunday, we were surprised. The pastor got up there and this was in the pulpit. He said, “I’ve sent my wife home and the kids because I didn’t understand that in trying to get things done here, I would get what I got here in this church in Tucson. I tell you, things would be good if it wasn’t for people,” and that’s the issue. It’s people. We don’t think alike. We think differently. I don’t care what it is that you think this magic pill that’s going to do, it’s going to take the Martin Luther Kings, the John Lewis’, the Barack Obamas and everyone doing their thing, then remembering that there are millions of other people out there every day that are doing things, that are helping people fulfill their mission of leading. They’re publishing their books and having their word out there. They’re putting them on podcasts so that you can hear them, all of that is leadership, all of that is good, and just be positive.

Remember this and I’m telling my grandkids this all the time that I don’t care how many degrees you get and I don’t care how smart you think you are, people won’t care about what you think until they know how much you care. You’ve got to genuinely care about those things that you want to “lead” and believe it or not, you’re leading right now on a lot of things in your life. Look down at that teenager, look down at that toddler, look over at your husband and think of the things that you have gained over the years and how many of those things were because of your leadership. How many of those things was because of his leadership. You’re leading.

You can't change other people's hearts, but you've got control of yours. Share on X

Why do you believe leaders need to be SMART?

I think leaders need to be SMART because of the five things that are essential to being successful, particularly in organizational leadership, but in any leadership, I’ve found to be S in SMART, meaning Studious. You’ve got to do your homework. You’ve got to know what you’re talking about. You’ve got to read, compare and discern opinions and differences. When you speak, it’s certainly based on your knowledge and your research. The M in SMART is being Masterful. You can never replace something that you become a master of. I don’t care what the occupation or what that sport is, there’s something about mastering it.

Not only I give those around you a sense of awe, but it gives you a sense of a certain spirit that, “I know I can do this. I spent time learning how to do this. I can master that.” The A is we’ve got to communicate, which means that you’ve got to be Articulate. You’ve got to be able to go from the mind and clearly say what you want people to hear. The R in SMART is one that’s overlooked. It’s Resourcefulness. You’re not depending on the doctor to say you’re not going to walk again. You’ve got another resource. Call God. He’s been looking over you, helping you think through how to get those muscles going again and it’s going to be all right.

There are other resources in your life, then the ones you think you have now particularly in these times with the COVID and what’s going on politically with people that unfortunately aren’t in positions to take this type of unemployment and this type of having kids at home and having to feed many faces every day. The key there is resourcefulness, and we’ve seen throughout this country where resources stood up like food lines, helping people, and giving. Continue to receive and to give and be resourceful. The T in SMART is one that is difficult to gain but so easy to lose and that T is Trust. That trust is something that when you earn from people, you’ve got to remember, that’s your currency. That’s money. That’s how you can make sure that if you’re leading in the right direction, they’re going to follow because you’ve earned their trust.

This is a book that you’ve published.

My wife and I spent several years trying to synthesize this idea of organizational leadership. Last October 2019, we’re fortunate enough to get The Smart Leader and the Skinny Principles: How to Lead and Win within Any Organization published. It’s totally different than any book that I’ve written or any book that I’ve read. Only because it says that leadership isn’t about having to have high IQs or having to have Harvard MBAs or anything like that. It’s all about being SMART and understanding those five traits. What we do in the book is that there are ten chapters and every chapter starts out with the story with a narrative.

In our research, we’ve learned that people will read short, suspenseful stories, but in that story, the protagonist puts himself in your shoes. You can sense what he or she did wrong or what he or she could do right. There’s a brief discussion about each of those ten skinny principles. It’s easy to read. We believe that most books of this type that as people began to get a sense of some simple, basic things they can do at their job, on their workplace, at their home and some fundamentals, that they can be also the studious, masterful, articulate, resourceful and trustworthy.

Where can people find this book?

You can find it anywhere online, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, sometimes your local bookstore character based on the relationship that the publisher has with the bookstore, but the easiest way is to go online and it’s in a paperback as well as a hardback. The way that production things are going now, the supply chain is messed up everywhere. It’s getting back to normal now. There isn’t any book like that. It’s something that you can read and if it tells you specifically, here’s what you can expect within an organization or here’s what you can expect, then it’s up to you to take that and say, “How does this fit into my job or my relationship?”

How can people connect with you if they wanted to learn more about you?

You can always go to my company’s website, which is www.RicherLifeLLC.com or you can email me at Earl@RicherLifeLLC.com. You can google Ervin Earl Cobb and it will show you my page, take you any of my books, my speeches and take you to the website.

I want to say thank you for coming on the show, Earl, and sharing your insight with us as well as your books. I liked the acronym SMART. Those are good traits of a leader. I’m going to utilize that. I’m going to post that up somewhere so that I could ensure that as a leader, I’m doing those things.

Remember, people won’t care about what you think until they know how much you care.

What can we do as individuals to ensure that we bounce back from adversity, dominate our challenges, and consistently win at the game of life?

Embrace your own God-given talent and resources. Wake up in the morning and then be thankful for what you have, not what you don’t have. Be thankful for what’s in your house and not what’s in someone else’s house. Be thankful for what’s in your heart. You can’t change other people’s hearts, but you’ve got control of yours.

That’s sage knowledge. Ervin Earl Cobb, thank you for stopping by once again and sharing with us. It’s been a pleasure.

Important Links:

• Focused Leadership: What You Can Do Today to Become a More Effective Leader
• The Smart Leader and the Skinny Principles: How to Lead and Win within Any Organization on Amazon
• Barnes & Noble – The Smart Leader and the Skinny Principles: How to Lead and Win within Any Organization
• www.RicherLifeLLC.com
• Earl@RicherLifeLLC.com
• www.EmbraceThePower.me
• http://RodneyFlowers.com/get-up-book/
• http://RodneyFlowers.com/essential-assertions-book/
• https://RodneyFlowers.us9.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=01f76a038256f77a6fbc93590&id=307d726734

About Earl Cobb

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